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South Kurdistan oil & gas development
Topic Started: Nov 17 12, 1:25 (649,190 Views)
jjmuneer
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Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 5:49
jjmuneer
Jun 23 13, 5:40

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What you fail to nbderstand is that aircraft use fuel, so you will need more fuel to ship crude oil then you can actually produce, and if you raise the price it wpnt matter because you will still need tp.pqy fpr the jet fuel, can you understand that? Shipping it by sea to a refinary is not the same as shipping it in the air, it uses much more fuel, they ate barely breaking evem by shipping it by land via trucks, how do you expect tjem to make a profit?
So your telling me a Cargo plane transporting crude oil(I honestly don't know how many barrels of oil) to a Southern-eastern Europe country or Russia is going to cost more fuel than the amount of fuel within the barrels of un-refined crude oil on the cargo plane? Lol do you even know how much fuel a Cargo plane uses? And lets just say for your argument's sake it did cost alot of amount of fuel, the cost in terms of money would be non-existant, since were the ones exporting the oil...
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jjmuneer
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Azamat
Jun 23 13, 5:53
Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 5:49

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Again, as I said, the costs of fuel could be minimized and the alternative rendered feasible by using turboprop rather than jet planes and taking on as little fuel as possible(which would probably be well below legal limits, but so be it).

Besides, the flight from SK to South Cyprus is not a long one anyway.
Exactly this guy thinks were talking about exporting the fuel directly to the West or China.
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jjmuneer
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Worldwar2boy
Jun 23 13, 5:50


JJ you better study things before you talk.

Ok WW2boy
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Worldwar2boy
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Azamat
Jun 23 13, 2:57
Kikan_Kurd
 
Shipping crude oil via aircraft is the stupidest thing I ever heard!
For hypocritically insulting my intelligence as you accuse Angrals of doing towards you, and your evaluation of the proposal as "absurd", transporting crude oil by plane is actually a reality on a small scale:

http://www.cbc.ca/thisisthat/blog/2012/12/05/alberta-energy-company-to-use-airplanes-instead-of-pipeline-to-transport-oil/
OH MY GOD, EVEN POSTING A LINK TO THAT ARTICLE IS friggin STUPID

We are not talking about a region that needs oil, we are talking about MASSIVE OIL EXPORT

An oil pipeline is the best method. Exporting oil via planes is NOT AN OPTION FOR KURDISTAN!

Look at the planes they want to use! That's not even the size of a decent truck!
Meaning that you would need TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PLANES AND MANY AIRPORTS TO EXPORT THE OIL!

Oil pipeline is the best and currently the only solution! No fuel costs and you can export a lot more - AND EASIER.

Anyone denying that doesn't know what he is talking about.



biji kurd u kurdistan !!
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jjmuneer
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Worldwar2boy
Jun 23 13, 5:55
Azamat
Jun 23 13, 2:57
OH MY GOD, EVEN POSTING A LINK TO THAT ARTICLE IS friggin STUPID

We are not talking about a region that needs oil, we are talking about MASSIVE OIL EXPORT

An oil pipeline is the best method. Exporting oil via planes is NOT AN OPTION FOR KURDISTAN!

Look at the planes they want to use! That's not even the size of a decent truck!
Meaning that you would need TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PLANES AND MANY AIRPORTS TO EXPORT THE OIL!

Oil pipeline is the best and currently the only solution! No fuel costs and you can export a lot more - AND EASIER.

Anyone denying that doesn't know what he is talking about.



That's not a Cargo plane.
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Worldwar2boy
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Azamat
Jun 23 13, 5:53
Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 5:49

Quoting limited to 2 levels deep
Again, as I said, the costs of fuel could be minimized and the alternative rendered feasible by using turboprop rather than jet planes and taking on as little fuel for each flight as possible(which would probably be well below legal limits, but so be it).

Besides, the flight from SK to South Cyprus is not a long one anyway.
WTF!!!!!!!!!

Do you even know wtf you are talking about?

You're just ignoring the number of planes needed, the logistic problems, the fuel costs, etc. that comes with exporting oil via planes?

Nobody has done that before on a big scale. You would need tens of thousands of planes and thousands of flights every day to export 500,000 BDP (and later 3,000,000) if you want to export it via planes. That is simply not possible.
biji kurd u kurdistan !!
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Worldwar2boy
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Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 6:00
Azamat
Jun 23 13, 5:53

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That might work on a very small scale, but what about 200,000 to a million barrels a day?
Exactly what I said.

They think SK produces 3 barrels of oil every day.

We are talking about +/- 2,500,000 to 3,000,000 THREE MILLION barrels a day somewhere between 2017-2020.

You would need thousands of planes EVERY DAY to export that many.

biji kurd u kurdistan !!
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jjmuneer
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Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 6:00
Azamat
Jun 23 13, 5:53

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That might work on a very small scale, but what about 200,000 to a million barrels a day?

Why won't it work? You have no real basis for your argument. You keep repeating the same things about the cost of fuel, yet were the ones exporting.

A flight from Kurdistan to Cyprus or even Greece/Bulgaria is approximately 1 and half to 2 hours, it is not that long and wouldn't require that much fuel.

But the fact of the matter is you want our oil pipelines to go through Turkey, which would make us economically and politically dependant on Turkey. I wonder if one day Turkey decide to such the pipelines, what options or tools the KRG would have to counter that?
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jjmuneer
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Worldwar2boy
Jun 23 13, 6:02
Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 6:00

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Exactly what I said.

They think SK produces 3 barrels of oil every day.

We are talking about +/- 2,500,000 to 3,000,000 THREE MILLION barrels a day somewhere between 2017-2020.

You would need thousands of planes EVERY DAY to export that many.

No you would need hundreds, but there is nothing wrong with that practically speaking. Both the air industry in Kurdistan and the neighbouring Cyprus/Greece/Bulgaria would financially benefit from such a method of exporting.
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jjmuneer
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Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 6:30
Worldwar2boy
Jun 23 13, 6:02

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Yeah we will be the laughing-stock of the world, just think of how stupid that would be, at the end of the day we will be losing money, hahaha.

And we won't be the "laughing stock of the world" when Turkey for political reasons chooses to close the movement of crude oil? :)

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Halo
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If KRG would start exporting oil today by air no one would buy it, even if it's only to Cyprus or Libanon where it will be shipped to Europe. The transportation cost will be too high and the quantity too low(each airplane) which means our oil would be sold at a very high prize. And KRG are far away of having the capital to buy these planes, even to rent them. Don't let me mention the infrastructure needed. Exporting oil by air is only sufficent if you want to supply small remote areas. But we are talking about exporting more than 500 000 barrels/day. We can expect many, especially greenies standing against it. The destination the planes are headed to must also have a vastly developed infrastructure. These are only some points out of many more than needs to be accounted if we want to export our oil by air.
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Alasha: Asking and discussing is not forbidden, rather prohibited on this forum
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jjmuneer
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Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 6:47
jjmuneer
Jun 23 13, 6:35

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I explained this in my first comment in this thread and I wrote about it in more detail in the other thread.

Turkey will never cut off the oil flow, because they will need it more than Kurdistan. And I wrote in the other thread that we need alternate pipelines, like via EK to Iran, Basra, and Red Sea via Jordan and Israel through Anbar, and we will wait and see what happens in WK and Syria.

I agree with you on this point, can't depend on Turkey, I never said to only use Turkey.
No my friend, were dependant on Turkey. Did you know most of our "western" investment comes from Turkey. Did you know there are 35,000 Turkish immigrants in the KRG? Did you you know 2/3 of the shopping malls in KRG are Turkish?

Do you know Turkey recieve oil from Russia, they have no qualms of cutting off oil supply with the KRG. It will most likely hinder their economic progress and GDP growth rate levels, but no long term damage.
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jjmuneer
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Simko
Jun 23 13, 6:47
If KRG would start exporting oil today by air no one would buy it, even if it's only to Cyprus or Libanon where it will be shipped to Europe. The transportation cost will be too high and the quantity too low(each airplane) which means our oil would be sold at a very high prize. And KRG are far away of having the capital to buy these planes, even to rent them. Don't let me mention the infrastructure needed. Exporting oil by air is only sufficent if you want to supply small remote areas. But we are talking about exporting more than 500 000 barrels/day. We can expect many, especially greenies standing against it. The destination the planes are headed to must also have a vastly developed infrastructure. These are only some points out of many more than needs to be accounted if we want to export our oil by air.
So what about when OPEC raised the price of oil? It didn't seem to effect demand in anyway.
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jjmuneer
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Just look at this

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And almost 800 foreign firms -- the majority of them from neighbouring Turkey -- have so far entered the Kurdish market, apparently encouraged in particular by a 2006 investment law that exempts them from taxes on imports and profits for their first 10 years in the region.

Firms are not obliged to hire local staff, have local investors or local partners, and can repatriate their profits at their discretion, according to Kamiran Mufti, head of the regional investment commission.

It proves the KRG isn't recieving any tax revenue from "lovely" Turkish investment.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=59594
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Azamat
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Kikan_Kurd
Jun 23 13, 6:00
Azamat
Jun 23 13, 5:53

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That might work on a very small scale, but what about 200,000 to a million barrels a day?
My suggestion to use turboprop planes might have been a bit off since heavy-lift turboprops are not produced anymore, but 20010 barrels per day could be possible using A380s:

174800 kg(maximum cargo weight) = 427000 kg(maximum landing weight) - 252200 kg(operating empty weight)

174800/131(kg per barrel of crude) = 1334 barrels

Operating a number of A380s that allows for a delivery of 15 shipments per 24 hours, we would have a rated output of 20010 barrels per day. This might amount to only just over a tenth of 200000, but rest assured that a proper assessment of how much oil we need to export rather than adopting the laissez-faire approach as the KRG has will reveal that indeed no more than a tenth of that number would be required to meet our financial demands - by which I mean the amount of money we need to develop and maintain the basic tenets of our economy(iron ore mining, steel production, electricity generation), and an amount that will be gradually saved away to be used for military purchases in the future.

But if you would rather have that we perform astronomical expenditures on superficial nonsense like malls, hotels, skyscrapers and whatnot, then by all means reject my proposal to use air transport because I'll admit that in that case it's not going to cut it.
Edited by Azamat, Jun 23 13, 8:16.
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We shouldn`t be too dependent on oil revenues. That would lead to a unstable economy dependent on global oil prices. Oil revenue should total at maximum 40% (Preferably less) of our total budget. We dont want to be like the Gulf states,whom have a lot of shiny stuff and seem rich,but many important industries are still weak ? (Both sides of this argument support a strong army,right? Well,a economy like that of the gulf states would compleetly hinder that. The gulf states have great military equipment,but do not have the expertise to operate them fully nor the industry to sustain a open war for long. Military industry is key to have a strong army in real life,and not just on paper).
What happens to the dollar also determends,to some degree,the economical situation of the Gulf states. And since the dollar is at record low against Yen,KR,Euro and other currencies,the GCC are losing a lot of money on that (The average inflation of GCC in 2008 was 10%. Some of them took a long time to recover)
KRG should,as mentioned earlier,invest in important industries (and keep them under KRG control). In that way,we have the capability to survive on our own. Goods would also become cheaper for us to buy (indivudially and for many)

Why dont we tax turkish companies working in Kurdistan? To attract more? A low (a little lower than regional average) tax on them would be okey (and taking into account all the companies here,that would make a good revenue),and still attract many companies.
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jjmuneer
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Kurdistan1804
Jun 23 13, 8:43
We shouldn`t be too dependent on oil revenues. That would lead to a unstable economy dependent on global oil prices. Oil revenue should total at maximum 40% (Preferably less) of our total budget. We dont want to be like the Gulf states,whom have a lot of shiny stuff and seem rich,but many important industries are still weak ? (Both sides of this argument support a strong army,right? Well,a economy like that of the gulf states would compleetly hinder that. The gulf states have great military equipment,but do not have the expertise to operate them fully nor the industry to sustain a open war for long. Military industry is key to have a strong army in real life,and not just on paper).
What happens to the dollar also determends,to some degree,the economical situation of the Gulf states. And since the dollar is at record low against Yen,KR,Euro and other currencies,the GCC are losing a lot of money on that (The average inflation of GCC in 2008 was 10%. Some of them took a long time to recover)
KRG should,as mentioned earlier,invest in important industries (and keep them under KRG control).

Why dont we tax turkish companies working in Kurdistan? To attract more? A low (a little lower than regional average) tax on them would be okey (and taking into account all the companies here,that would make a good revenue),and still attract many companies.
Yes, to attract more Turkish companies in the region.
Well actually the US Dollar depriecating is not a bad thing for Gulf oil exports. This is because it actually increase the value of crude oil being imported from the Gulf states, as crude oil is price inelastic to demand.
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ALAN
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Kinematk it's nothing but BS irack and turkey oil deal is non existence simply bcos the two countries don't border each other south Kurdistan isn't irack ;-) thus turkey doesn't give two shits about what irack has to utter for itself. Also irack will not get projects like this bcos of all the daily routine bombing thus this is S.Kurdistan not irack :)

That is a good way to distinguish by the bombs xD for the west of course irackis very well know they have 0 control over S.Kurdistan.
Russian Girenak Joseph, who visited Kirkuk in Kurdistan as a part of his tour throu the 1870 - 1873 AD, who published the results of his trip & his studies later in 1879, in the 4th volume in the Bulletin of the Caucasus department of the Royal Geographical Russian Society estimated Kirkuk's population as many as 12-50,000 people, & he emphasized that except 40 Christian families, the rest of the population were Kurds. As for The Turkmen & Arabs, they have not been already existed at the time.
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Halo
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jjmuneer
Jun 23 13, 7:00
Simko
Jun 23 13, 6:47
If KRG would start exporting oil today by air no one would buy it, even if it's only to Cyprus or Libanon where it will be shipped to Europe. The transportation cost will be too high and the quantity too low(each airplane) which means our oil would be sold at a very high prize. And KRG are far away of having the capital to buy these planes, even to rent them. Don't let me mention the infrastructure needed. Exporting oil by air is only sufficent if you want to supply small remote areas. But we are talking about exporting more than 500 000 barrels/day. We can expect many, especially greenies standing against it. The destination the planes are headed to must also have a vastly developed infrastructure. These are only some points out of many more than needs to be accounted if we want to export our oil by air.
So what about when OPEC raised the price of oil? It didn't seem to effect demand in anyway.
I am talking about companies that will buy our oil to later on export it. It will cost them too much.
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Alasha: Asking and discussing is not forbidden, rather prohibited on this forum
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jjmuneer
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Simko
Jun 24 13, 2:45
jjmuneer
Jun 23 13, 7:00

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I am talking about companies that will buy our oil to later on export it. It will cost them too much.
Companies don't buy oil, they buy oil share.
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ALAN
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You guys are arguing this whole oil export with a person like Ashti Hawrami who has spent his entire life in oil?

KRG is building pipeline for its oil if one day turkey becomes hostile towards KRG (Exxon, Chevron and Total) then I'm sure US will think of a way to get that force offline via one of its methods in turkey let it be the Kemalists for eg. IF and when that happens KRG could use Azamat's costly suggestion to export it's oil via air but it will cost triple the running cost of exporting via pipelines and it will be very small quantities.
Russian Girenak Joseph, who visited Kirkuk in Kurdistan as a part of his tour throu the 1870 - 1873 AD, who published the results of his trip & his studies later in 1879, in the 4th volume in the Bulletin of the Caucasus department of the Royal Geographical Russian Society estimated Kirkuk's population as many as 12-50,000 people, & he emphasized that except 40 Christian families, the rest of the population were Kurds. As for The Turkmen & Arabs, they have not been already existed at the time.
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jjmuneer
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A L A N
Jun 24 13, 4:27
You guys are arguing this whole oil export with a person like Ashti Hawrami who has spent his entire life in oil?

KRG is building pipeline for its oil if one day turkey becomes hostile towards KRG (Exxon, Chevron and Total) then I'm sure US will think of a way to get that force offline via one of its methods in turkey let it be the Kemalists for eg. IF and when that happens KRG could use Azamat's costly suggestion to export it's oil via air but it will cost triple the running cost of exporting via pipelines and it will be very small quantities.
Alan so your putting your trust in the USA again? Like in 1991? What if(a big if) you are right and the USA do side with us over Turkey. It will still make us dependant upon the west.
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Azamat
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Believing that the USA would side with us rather than Turkey in the event of conflict borders on delusion. We might have oil, but so does Turkey, and that is just one resource in an astronomical array of natural resources that Turkey possesses(of which many in NK) whereas we do not, making Turkey a far better candidate for US investment than does Kurdistan.

But let's look at the premise first. Do we really want development of industries to be the work of the USA(or any foreign power) and to open our resources up to the world market as a default position? Why not focus intensively on educating the most intelligent minds amongst our population in technical fields for a sustained period(like 10-15 years) so we can develop the industries by ourselves later on?

Also, why should I care about any of Ashti Hawrami's work in my assessment of the oil question when I strongly disagree with the KRG's policies on oil and the economy in general? Contributions to Kurdish technical knowledge and skills on his part are something he deserves valuation and respect for, of course, but that does not render his political positions and assumptions pertinent to the energy sector any more valid than are mine.
Edited by Azamat, Jun 24 13, 5:11.
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Worldwar2boy
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Azamat
Jun 24 13, 5:02
Believing that the USA would side with us rather than Turkey in the event of conflict borders on delusion. We might have oil, but so does Turkey, and that is just one resource in an astronomical array of natural resources that Turkey possesses(of which many in NK) whereas we do not, making Turkey a far better candidate for US investment than does Kurdistan.

But let's look at the premise first. Do we really want development of industries to be the work of the USA(or any foreign power) and to open our resources up to the world market as a default position? Why not focus intensively on educating the most intelligent minds amongst our population in technical fields for a sustained period(like 10-15 years) so we can develop the industries by ourselves later on?

Also, why should I care about any of Ashti Hawrami's work in my assessment of the oil question when I strongly disagree with the KRG's policies on oil and the economy in general? Contributions to Kurdish technical knowledge and skills on his part are something he deserves valuation and respect for, of course, but that does not render his political positions and assumptions pertinent to the energy sector any more valid than are mine.
LOL

Turkey has oil? Whaha, they do, but it is nothing compared to SK. Turkey's oil reserve is 262 million barrels. That's not even 0.5% of SK's oil lol.


biji kurd u kurdistan !!
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Worldwar2boy
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jjmuneer
Jun 24 13, 4:38
A L A N
Jun 24 13, 4:27
You guys are arguing this whole oil export with a person like Ashti Hawrami who has spent his entire life in oil?

KRG is building pipeline for its oil if one day turkey becomes hostile towards KRG (Exxon, Chevron and Total) then I'm sure US will think of a way to get that force offline via one of its methods in turkey let it be the Kemalists for eg. IF and when that happens KRG could use Azamat's costly suggestion to export it's oil via air but it will cost triple the running cost of exporting via pipelines and it will be very small quantities.
Alan so your putting your trust in the USA again? Like in 1991? What if(a big if) you are right and the USA do side with us over Turkey. It will still make us dependant upon the west.
Dude make up your mind. First you say US won't choose us over Turkey, than when US might choose us over Turkey, we shouldn't trust them anyway because that would make us dependant on the West? What is it that you want?!?

Come with a proposal genius, I am sure what you say is better for Kurdistan than what KRG politcians & ministers (who probably have underwear older than you are) with decades of experience say.
biji kurd u kurdistan !!
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